00:00 00:00 so this is a kind of a weird jumping-off 所以这是一种奇怪的起点 point but I listen to you on I think it was a Mother Jones podcast and you very 点，但我听你的，我认为这是一个琼斯妈妈播客，你非常 briefly mentioned a machine learning experiment for the audiobook yeah could 简要提到了有声读物的机器学习实验是的可以 you talk about that a little bit longer sure yeah of course um well okay so the 你说得再长一点当然是的，嗯，好吧，所以 background is that as I've been working on these books that are in a lot of ways 背景是我一直在写这些书，它们在很多方面 traditionally published even though I have an interesting very sort of 传统上出版，尽管我有一种非常有趣的 forward-thinking publisher and CD they still get printed on paper and you know 有远见的出版商和 CD 他们仍然印刷在纸上，你知道 sold mostly in bookstores and online and 主要在书店和网上出售 places like that as I've been working on all that stuff for a few years now I've 像这样的地方，因为我已经在这些事情上工作了几年了，现在我已经 also like many people in this area many people that I'm sure you guys know I've 也像这个领域的许多人一样，我相信你们知道我已经 been really interested to the to the point of sort of preoccupation with 真的很感兴趣，甚至有点全神贯注 machine learning yeah in particularly the creative applications like less this 机器学习是的，特别是像这样的创意应用 super practical sort of uses and the ways that it might transform the economy 超级实用的用途及其可能改变经济的方式 and all that and I mean truly more like the ways that we can use some of these 所有这些，我的意思实际上更像是我们可以使用其中一些的方式 systems to mash and mangle and and just interact with like words and pictures 混合、破坏并与文字和图片等进行交互的系统 00:01 00:01 and sounds in different ways so that's all preface the audio book first of all 并且以不同的方式发出声音，所以这首先是有声读物的序言 it's actually interesting to know for folks that aren't totally plugged into 对于那些没有完全融入其中的人来说，了解这一点实际上很有趣 the publishing industry audiobooks are huge it's like they're growing like 出版业的有声读物规模巨大，就像它们正在增长一样 gangbusters every time I go to a bookstore and do a reading I ask people 每次我去书店读书时都会问别人 like how many of you also listen to audiobooks and I mean truly everybody's 就像你们中有多少人也听有声读物，我的意思是每个人都 hand goes Wow it's like just a really really popular way to consume this media 哇，这就像是一种非常非常流行的消费媒体的方式 so kind of in step with that audiobook producers have gotten really serious and 如此步调一致，有声读物制作人已经变得非常认真 frankly a little bit demanding they're like okay mr. Sloan it's time to produce 坦白说，他们的要求有点高，好吧，先生。斯隆是时候生产了 the audio book what do you got for me you know like what can you produce or 有声书你给我什么你知道你能制作什么或 what will you produce that will make this little distinct from just the 你会生产出什么东西来让这个小东西与普通的东西不同 printed book they don't want to just do like a recitation of what's on the page 他们不想只是背诵纸质书页上的内容 so for this book sourdough the story happens to hinge on 所以对于这本书来说，故事恰好取决于 this sourdough starter you know this little funny community of microbes that 这个酵母发酵剂你知道这个有趣的微生物群落 00:02 00:02 you used to bake this delicious bread and in the story there's a starter with 你曾经烤过这个美味的面包，故事里有一个开胃菜 some strange properties and there's also this singing there's like this music 一些奇怪的特性，还有这种歌声，就像这样的音乐 that I don't want to give any spoilers but it kind of helps the starter grow 我不想剧透，但这有助于初学者成长 and it's all part of this mysterious package so I describe the music over and 这都是这个神秘包的一部分所以我一遍又一遍地描述音乐 over in the book I mean like a great length like oh it's so slow and sad and 在书中，我的意思是像一个很大的长度，哦，它是如此缓慢和悲伤， mysterious like in a language that no one understands and so come time to 神秘就像一种没有人理解的语言，所以是时候了 produce the audiobook I was like if you go through this whole thing in your 制作有声读物，我想如果你在你的经历中经历了这整件事 earbuds and you never hear even a scrap of this music like it's gonna be kind of 耳机里你甚至听不到这音乐的片段，就像它会有点 disappointing unfortunately we did not have the budget to like hire the people 不幸的是，令人失望的是我们没有预算来雇用这些人 who invent Dothraki Thrones or Klingon or whatever so we need some other way to 谁发明了多斯拉克王座或克林贡人或其他什么，所以我们需要其他方法 like synthesize this sound that would be truly alien like it is it's not any 就像合成这种真正陌生的声音，就像它不是任何东西一样 language on planet earth it's something fictional something invented so this 地球上的语言是虚构的东西所以这个 where it loops back around to that obsession with machine learning as I 它又回到了我对机器学习的痴迷 00:03 00:03 think you guys probably know one of the things that that these models can do 我认为你们可能知道这些模型可以做的事情之一 really well is sort of take a corpus of stuff of you know training material and 真的很好，就是采取一些你知道的培训材料的语料库， extract some patterns or general patterns and then use those to generate 提取一些模式或一般模式，然后使用它们来生成 something new but different you know not just kind of mimicry of what you put in 你知道一些新的但不同的东西不仅仅是对你所放入的东西的模仿 so I mean at that point it actually you know it took a lot of kind of learning 所以我的意思是，实际上你知道这需要大量的学习 and tinkering with the code actually struggling with the code at this point 并修改代码，此时实际上正在与代码斗争 or flow or this was in actually funnily enough this program was in Lua in TOR - 或流程，或者这实际上很有趣，这个程序是在 TOR 中的 Lua 中 - the original torch and totally a testament to just the power of this open 原始火炬完全证明了这种开放式的力量 source ecosystem I mean this was a paper written by one group of researchers 源生态系统我的意思是这是一组研究人员写的论文 implemented by this like rogue mad machine learning genius UK this kind of 由英国这样的流氓疯狂机器学习天才实施 Richard SR who's just like I like bowed down to him and his generosity truly and 理查德·SR（Richard SR）就像我一样，真诚地向他和他的慷慨鞠躬 like making this really wonderful and very useable implementation of this tool 就像使这个工具的实现变得非常精彩且非常有用 00:04 00:04 it's called sample rnm and it takes as many mp3s as you want to feed it chops 它被称为样本 rnm，它需要尽可能多的 mp3 来喂它。 them up into bits churns learning for days and days and days at least on my 它们被分解成碎片，至少在我的身上需要花费很多天的时间来学习 deep learning rig I'm sure Google would be like got it for me it took a few days 深度学习设备我相信谷歌会像花了几天时间才帮我得到它 and then in the end spits out this this really to my you're at least weird and 然后最后吐出这个这个真的对我来说你至少很奇怪 and lovely to kind of generalization you know it tries its hardest to learn the 很可爱的概括，你知道它会尽最大努力去学习 essence of that music you fed it of course it kind of fails because 你喂给它的音乐的本质当然是失败的，因为 nowadays models are actually that good yet at least had stuff of that level of 现在的模型实际上已经那么好了，但至少有那种水平的东西 complexity but the way in which I fail is really interesting so that's all the 复杂性，但我失败的方式真的很有趣，所以这就是全部 same that now in this audio book there is just these little whispers of this 同样，现在在这本有声读物中，只有这些小窃窃私语 fictional music in this fictional language and to my knowledge is the 这种虚构语言中的虚构音乐，据我所知是 first time that like the creative output of a machine learning system has been 第一次像机器学习系统的创造性输出一样 included in an audio book I mean I think it might be a tiny distinction but I am 包含在有声读物中，我的意思是我认为这可能是一个微小的区别，但我是 all about tiny distinctions I will like I just want to rack up all the like tiny 所有关于微小的区别我都会喜欢我只是想把所有像微小的东西都收集起来 steps for words the state of the art have you used the model to create 您使用模型创建的最先进的单词步骤 00:05 00:05 anything else oh yeah I mean basically when after you've assembled one of these 其他任何东西哦，是的，我的意思基本上是当你组装完其中一个之后 rigs or a couple of them in my case um you feel bad about ever letting them sit 就我而言，是钻机或其中的几个，嗯，让它们坐着让你感觉很糟糕 idle because I mean that's what they're for they've got these big beefy GPUs and 闲置，因为我的意思是他们就是这样，因为他们有这些强大的 GPU， and it's so hard and truly it's so hard to get all the weird little libraries 真的很难得到所有奇怪的小图书馆 and dependencies all lined up right so at having like done that you never want 和依赖项都排列正确，因此在完成您永远不想做的事情时 to let them sit so yeah like I have some models that are kind of always turning 让它们坐着，是的，就像我有一些总是在转动的模型 on different bodies of text you know just to try to see what happens and what 在不同的文本主体上，你只是想看看会发生什么以及发生什么 emerges but there's one where I've thrown in all sorts of different kinds 出现了，但我在其中加入了各种不同的类型 of music and sound just to see what it sounds like on the other end and sure 音乐和声音只是为了看看另一端听起来像什么，当然 enough I mean sometimes what comes out is just kind of a messy garble and 够了我的意思是有时出来的只是一种混乱的乱码 sometimes it's really interesting we listen to it on sound phone no no you 有时我们用有声电话听真的很有趣不不你 can listen to it on the sourdough audio book which is available on audible.com 可以在 audible.com 上的酵母有声读物上收听它 but no none of the other stuff is public yet it's not quite it's the other stuff 但不，其他的东西都不是公开的，但也不完全是其他的东西 is still at the level of you know and a lot of this stuff is it's kind of I 仍然处于你知道的水平，很多东西都是我的 00:06 00:06 think in this state it's like that's sort of frothy frumenty experimental 认为在这种状态下，这就像是一种泡沫丰富的实验 like ooh there's like something there mmm but I personally don't quite know 就像哦，那里好像有什么东西，但我个人不太知道 what that something is and so a lot of my work with this machine learning stuff 那是什么东西，所以我在机器学习方面做了很多工作 is kind of trying to push through that to get to like you know a thing like a 是一种尝试去克服它，让你知道像这样的事情 thing that's actually worth sharing on the other end and that is definitely a 实际上值得在另一端分享的东西，这绝对是 working partner and what were the input files 工作伙伴以及输入文件是什么 in this case it was almost like a short circuit straight from my own inspiration 在这种情况下，它几乎就像直接来自我自己的灵感的短路 to the output because of course you know this all started this project was only 到输出，因为当然你知道这一切都开始了这个项目只是 necessary um or you know I only sort of thought to do it because I had written 有必要，或者你知道我只是想这么做，因为我写过 about this fictional music and decisional language in my book and that 关于我书中的这种虚构的音乐和决策语言 came from my own experience listening to a kind of music that I've just long 来自我自己听一种我长久以来的音乐的经历 enjoyed and sort of thought was beautiful it's a kind of Croatian folk 很享受，觉得很美，这是一种克罗地亚民俗 singing all a cappella sort of a chorus of voices in sort of odd harmonies it's 以一种奇怪的和声进行无伴奏合唱 called klaapa que la pa and so I just had my like you know folder pre-existing 叫做 klaapa que la pa，所以我只是有我的像你知道的文件夹预先存在 00:07 00:07 folder of just all the klaapa mp3s I'd ever how did you come across kalapa 文件夹里只有我曾经听过的所有 klaapa mp3 你是怎么遇到 kalapa 的 because who knows on the Internet I mean that's like always the answer to that 因为谁知道在互联网上我的意思是这总是这个问题的答案 question yeah somewhere on the Internet and it's just like for years I just I'd 问题是的，在互联网上的某个地方，多年来我只是想 long loved it and thought it sounded lovely and so of course it was in my 长期以来一直喜欢它并且认为它听起来很可爱，所以当然它在我的 brain when I'm when I'm imagining this stuff and putting into my book and so 当我想象这些东西并将其放入我的书中时，我的大脑等等 then in a way I mean this might be reaching a little too far but I kind of 那么在某种程度上我的意思是这可能有点太过分了但我有点 feel like the machine learning system and I did the same thing just on 感觉就像机器学习系统，我刚刚做了同样的事情 different tracks like input right and like the experience of listening to 不同的曲目喜欢输入权以及喜欢聆听的体验 something followed by some munging mashing step and in kind of abstraction 接下来是一些咀嚼捣碎步骤和某种抽象 step of course in mind I kind of had my response reaction in the music and the 当然，我在音乐和音乐中都有自己的反应 girl network had a different thing going on but then in the end we both spit out 女孩网络发生了不同的事情，但最后我们都吐了 something actually something new and different 实际上是新的和不同的东西 I mean transformed but still obviously based on that on that same input and and 我的意思是经过转换，但显然仍然基于相同的输入和 did you educate yourself similar around robotic arms we've done all these like 你有没有接受过类似的关于机器人手臂的教育，我们已经做了所有这些事情 00:08 00:08 basically technical adviser interviews for TV shows and movies and stuff and I 基本上是电视节目和电影之类的技术顾问面试，我 was researching her the other day hoping that there was someone there and Spike 前几天正在研究她，希望有人在那里，而斯派克 Jones explicitly said we don't want a technical adviser because I don't want 琼斯明确表示我们不需要技术顾问，因为我不想 to be bounded by reality yeah I just want to go for it that's awesome 受现实的束缚是的，我只是想追求它，这太棒了 actually I mm-hmm I wonder I don't know if I'd like that or not I think I don't 事实上我嗯嗯我想知道我不知道我是否愿意我想我不喜欢 actually I I think there's probably I respect the people who are able to like 事实上我想我可能尊重那些能够喜欢的人 dive deep and nerd out with the experts and remain unbound like you have to sort 深入研究，与专家一起研究，并保持不受束缚，就像你必须分类一样 of say you have to be sort of greedy and like take everything that they tell you 也就是说，你必须有点贪婪，喜欢接受他们告诉你的一切 they'd be like who gotta go you know and into the realm of 他们就像谁必须进入你知道的领域 imagination and strangeness and wonder I feel like that's because I feel like 想象力、陌生感和惊奇 我觉得那是因为我觉得 that's sort of self-serving because I feel like that's sort of my model I do 这有点自私，因为我觉得这就是我的榜样 love to read about this stuff I do not own a robot arm of my own um I've never 喜欢阅读这些内容我没有自己的机器人手臂，嗯我从来没有 personally operated one but I have seen them operated and I think they're pretty 亲自操作过，但我见过他们操作过，我认为它们很漂亮 amazing I state not just you know like mechanically or sort of yeah computation 令人惊奇的是，我说不仅仅是你知道机械或某种计算 00:09 00:09 like aesthetically I think they're really interesting and lovely and and 从美学上来说，我认为它们真的很有趣、很可爱，而且 yeah and so the the inclusion of lots of robotic arms and people talking about 是的，所以包括了很多机械臂和人们谈论的 robotic arms and thinking about robotic arms in this book was definitely was 本书中的机器人手臂和对机器人手臂的思考绝对是 driven just by my own yeah interest in that's a great thing about living the 只是由我自己的兴趣驱动，是的，生活是一件很棒的事情 Bay Area and also just frankly the level of tech journalism that exists today 湾区以及当今科技新闻业的水平 yeah boy you can glean a lot and not just surface level stuff but like the 是的，孩子，你可以收集很多东西，不仅仅是表面的东西，而是像 really deep mechanics just by reading on the internet and and kind of going down 只需在互联网上阅读即可了解非常深入的机制，并且有点深入 this rabbit holes YouTube right like anytime you want to go beyond these sort YouTube 上的兔子洞就像你想超越这些类型的任何时候一样 of description be like okay well what does it really look like or like how 描述就像好吧，它到底是什么样子或者怎么样 does it how does it swivel in space I mean there's a YouTube video to show you 它是如何在太空中旋转的？我的意思是有一个 YouTube 视频可以向您展示 it's amazing but then okay so to give away a little bit of the book she Louis 太棒了，但是没关系，所以把她路易斯的书的一点内容送给大家 gets the sourdough starter she eventually starts making it herself she 得到酵母发酵剂，她最终开始自己制作 00:10 00:10 ends up in this kind of hidden farmers market and part of her part of her store 最终来到了这种隐藏的农贸市场和她商店的一部分 is like making the sourdough with the robotic arm right and quarter that is 就像用机器人手臂右边和四分之一来制作酸面团一样 cracking the eggs is that a real technical problem that exists um that's 打破鸡蛋是一个真正存在的技术问题 a good question I don't know for sure I suspect I call it like the egg problem 这是一个好问题，我不确定我怀疑我把它称为鸡蛋问题 yeah capital e capital think it's like you like I get all these roboticists are 是的，资本 e 资本认为这就像你一样，我明白所有这些机器人专家都是 like yes the all that stands between us and domination of all the world's 就像是的，我们和统治世界之间的一切 economy is AGI then the egg problem yeah exactly and I so I don't know I kind of 经济是通用人工智能，然后是鸡蛋问题，是的，我，所以我不知道我有点 suspect that it is a problem it has been my perception I could be wrong this is 怀疑这是一个问题，这是我的看法，我可能是错的，这是 probably where it buzzes into into fiction a little bit but it has been in 可能它在小说中有点嗡嗡作响，但它已经在 my perception that um as as a character in the book says you know there's 我的看法是，作为书中的一个角色，你知道有 something really appealing about these arms working in kitchens like 这些在厨房工作的手臂确实很吸引人，比如 I mean they're just you're like we will have done something when an arm can like 我的意思是，他们只是你就像我们会做一些事情，当手臂可以喜欢 make you an omelet or do some of those kitchen tasks but in fact it's really 给你做煎蛋卷或做一些厨房工作，但事实上它真的 00:11 00:11 challenging because that kitchen space is in fact really chaotic and unbound it 具有挑战性，因为厨房空间实际上非常混乱且不受约束 it's not one of these spaces that sort of at least a normal kitchen like a 它不是这些空间之一，至少是一个像普通厨房一样的空间 restaurant kitchen or our home kitchen McDonald's obviously is kind of kind of 餐厅厨房或我们的家庭厨房麦当劳显然是一种 into something around sort of modularity 围绕某种模块化的东西 and it's already pretty robotic to start with but those other kind of kitchen 一开始它就已经相当机器人了，但是其他类型的厨房 there's more organic kitchens if you actually kind of do that thing of like 如果你真的做了类似的事情，就会有更多的有机厨房 Dee familiarizing it and like looking trying to look at everything in that 迪伊熟悉它并且喜欢尝试观察其中的一切 space and the way it all works together with fresh eyes you're like that's 空间以及它与你所喜欢的新鲜眼睛一起工作的方式 [ __ ] impossible it's just the angles [ __ ] 不可能，只是角度问题 and the slopes and everything's a weird shape and you can't recognize it all in 斜坡和所有东西的形状都很奇怪，你无法在其中认出它们 in I do think that's wonderful that's lovely that it's like oh man what 我确实认为这很棒，很可爱，就像天啊，什么 a what a magic show actually for a human cook to manage all those things at once 对于人类厨师来说，同时处理所有这些事情实际上是一场神奇的表演 and then reach over and just with one hand go and crack an egg yeah so yeah 然后伸出手，用一只手敲碎一个鸡蛋 是的，是的 well because you kind of you spoke to it in the book around having two hands 好吧，因为你在书中谈到过有两只手 basically like I can't do that either I've tried it today like oh yeah this 基本上我也做不到，我今天已经尝试过，就像哦，是的 will be easy just crack an egg with one hand no not so much I will tell you that 很容易，只需用一只手打碎一个鸡蛋，不，没有那么多，我会告诉你 00:12 00:12 you can learn it is at YouTube once again is your guide I think in the book 你可以在 YouTube 上了解到，我想这也是你在书中的指南 if I remember right I actually have um I have Louis learned by watching YouTube 如果我没记错的话，我实际上有，我有路易斯通过观看 YouTube 学到的 clips including some that are so good they're just because again truly 包括一些非常好的剪辑，它们只是因为再次真正 everything everything you need to know and every task no matter how small is 您需要知道的一切以及每项任务，无论多么小 somewhere like documented on YouTube and and often it'll be like these 就像 YouTube 上记录的那样，而且通常会像这样 disembodied hands just it'll the video is like a minute long and they just kind 没有实体的手就这样，视频只有一分钟长，而且他们很友善 of show you and demonstrate and do a test run and then you know tap it on the 向您展示、演示并进行测试运行，然后您就知道点击它 edge and it comes right open and I was skeptical at first but in fact it is not 边缘，它直接打开，一开始我很怀疑，但事实上并非如此 that hard hmm right on yeah what was the inspiration 那很难，嗯，对，是的，灵感是什么 to do this book inspiration to do this book was you know it's actually a lot 写这本书的灵感是你知道它实际上有很多 like the other books I've done it's really living here in the Bay Area which 就像我写的其他书一样，它实际上生活在湾区 I I mean truly think it sounds a little dorky almost a little Pollyannish but 我的意思是，我真的认为这听起来有点愚蠢，几乎有点盲目乐观，但是 much but but truly I just I've for all for all of its complexity and problems 很多但实际上我只是为了所有的复杂性和问题 and everything else I think it's just a really really inspiring place I think 以及其他一切，我认为这是一个非常非常鼓舞人心的地方 00:13 00:13 it's a place where people do interesting things and end up leading these really 这是一个人们做有趣的事情并最终真正引领这些事情的地方 interesting and so yeah over the last few years I 有趣，所以是的，在过去的几年里我 personally just as a human had gotten have gotten pulled more into the world 就个人而言，就像一个人已经更多地融入这个世界一样 of food just as an observer kind of just 食物只是作为一个观察者 like someone curious about it and slowly as a more of a participant although I'm 就像一个对此感到好奇的人，慢慢地成为一个参与者，尽管我 still much more of a observer than a participant and it's just I mean this is 仍然更像是一个观察者而不是参与者，这只是我的意思是这是 what happens with everything I think it happens to journalists too you dip a toe 一切都会发生什么，我想记者也会遇到这种情况，你小心一点 and do something and you realize that it's just full of story I mean there's 做一些事情，你就会意识到它充满了故事，我的意思是有 so much stuff there's so many little dramas and mysteries and and mechanics 这么多的东西，有这么多的小戏剧、神秘和机制 that you can pretty easily turn into into plots that's one of my questions is 你可以很容易地把它变成情节，这是我的问题之一是 that your stories from penumbra to sourdough and of explore the 你的故事从半影到酵母并探索 intersection between you know tech and startups and old crafts like bread 你所知道的科技与初创公司和面包等旧工艺之间的交集 making or in a book selling and so what about that interaction is particularly 制作或销售书籍，那么这种互动特别重要吗？ interesting to you well you know I think it's some it's it's at the conjunction 你很感兴趣你知道我认为这是一些它在合相处 00:14 00:14 between them and it the the honest answer might be annoyance I'm so 在他们和它之间，诚实的答案可能是烦恼，我是如此 routinely annoyed when the old and the new get framed as an adversarial 当新人和旧人被认为是对手时，他们通常会感到恼火 relationship basically when people say or or versus this habit and you know of 基本上当人们说或或反对这个习惯时，你知道的关系 course this happens with books and it was so much the sort of conversation 当然，这种情况发生在书本上，而且是这样的对话 especially on like ebooks and print books like the internet and the old 尤其是电子书和印刷书籍，例如互联网和旧书 school publishing like well which will it be you know which will triumph or 学校出版也一样，你知道哪一个会获胜，或者 like what is the road forward and I don't know why I don't know if it's just 就像前进的道路是什么，我不知道为什么我不知道这是否只是 temperamental or I've had good mentors and good advisers or you know I've had 脾气暴躁，或者我有好的导师和顾问，或者你知道我有过 the opportunity to read smart thinkers for a long time that has always seemed 长期以来似乎一直有机会阅读聪明的思想家 so nonsensical to me like it seems to me 对我来说是如此荒谬 like it is always and instead of the new thing replacing the old thing it all 就像往常一样，而不是新事物取代旧事物 just piles up in this like multi-car crash non violent crash glorious crash 只是堆积在这就像多车碰撞 非暴力碰撞 光荣的碰撞 00:15 00:15 where everything is just everything is just kind of like and the mountain is 一切都只是一切都只是有点像山 getting higher and higher and higher and I don't know I find that totally 越来越高，越来越高，我不知道我完全发现了这一点 exciting because it means we get new things all the time but we also get the 令人兴奋，因为这意味着我们一直在得到新的东西，但我们也得到了 benefit of crafts and ideas and obsessions that have been sort of 工艺、想法和痴迷的好处 compelling people for a really long time so I 很长一段时间以来一直吸引着人们，所以我 mostly not mostly but at least in in large part my books are intended as a 大部分不是大部分，但至少在很大程度上，我的书旨在作为 sort of rebuttal to all the people who want to make us choose between the old 有点反驳所有那些想让我们在旧的之间做出选择的人 and the new I'm like nope I want both option see ya do you have a name for the 新的我想不，我想要两个选项，看看你有名字吗 genre that you exist in because I was talking to cat before about this and 你存在的类型，因为我之前和猫谈论过这个 there seems to be you know increasing amounts possibly infinite amounts of 似乎你知道增加的数量可能是无限的 dystopian like black mirror type content but you're kind of into this like 像黑镜类型的反乌托邦内容，但你有点喜欢这样 positive satire genre what do you call that oh man I don't know it's a short 正面讽刺类型，你怎么称呼它，天哪，我不知道这是一个短片 answer some someone did suggest genre tag that I quite liked and they said I 回答一些人确实建议了我非常喜欢的流派标签，他们说我 00:16 00:16 think your books are sort of like puzzle fiction and I just like the sound of 我觉得你的书有点像益智小说，我只是喜欢这样的声音 that I'm not sure that it's an actual genre or even if my books are that 我不确定这是否是一种真正的类型，或者即使我的书是这样的 puzzling but I was like if I ever saw my books on a shelf labeled puzzle fiction 令人费解，但我想如果我曾经在书架上看到我的书贴着益智小说的标签 I would be very happy there I mean in my heart they are sci-fi 我会很高兴在那里我的意思是在我心里他们是科幻小说 inflected literary fiction and all I mean by that is I try to take care with 变形的文学小说，我的意思是我试图照顾 the sentences and just you know produce language and you know scenes that are 这些句子和你所知道的产生语言，你知道的场景 like interesting somewhat interesting to read and not just like glop on the page 喜欢有趣，读起来有点有趣，而不仅仅是喜欢在页面上乱七八糟 at the same time there's no denying that my core genre as a reader is science 与此同时，不可否认的是，我作为读者的核心类型是科学 fiction and so that stuff just gets kind of metabolized and regurgitated I guess 小说，所以我想这些东西只是被代谢和反刍 or transformed it's refreshing yes sort of like an on dystopic like they're 或者改变了它令人耳目一新，是的，有点像反乌托邦，就像他们一样 funny you know elements like the slurry drinking that I definitely personally 有趣的是，你知道像我个人肯定喝浆液这样的元素 recognize but but I think it's there there I get an overall a positive sense 认识到，但我认为它就在那里，我总体上有一种积极的感觉 00:17 00:17 about the world you're building yeah yeah I would say so I mean part of that 关于你正在建设的世界 是的，我会这么说，我的意思是其中的一部分 for me is root and this is not necessarily a sort of dystopian or not 对我来说是根，这不一定是一种反乌托邦或不是 distinction but part of that for me is rooted in the desire to have like 但对我来说，这种区别的部分根源在于渴望拥有类似的东西 narrators and other characters that you actually want to spend time with and 您真正想与之共度时光的叙述者和其他角色 that's only because my most memorable experience is a reading from you know 那只是因为我最难忘的经历是读你知道的 early childhood onward had been ones where I finished the book you know 从童年开始，我就完成了这本书，你知道 closed the back cover and I missed the the mind that I was spending 合上后盖，我怀念我所花费的心思 with and there's a lot of good books that are you know compelling engrossing 有很多好书，你知道这些书引人入胜、引人入胜 and rewarding that aren't that we were like you know like what a bunch of 和奖励并不是我们像你知道的那样一群 broken humans I mean there's a lot of stuff like that books and and TV like 破碎的人类我的意思是有很多像书籍和电视这样的东西 I'm probably probably more that than anything else maybe it's actually for 我可能比其他任何事情都更重要也许这实际上是为了 exactly that reason and I'm like okay cool other writers have got that unlock 正是这个原因，我觉得好吧，其他作家已经解锁了 00:18 00:18 they've got the like everyone is broken beat nailed down and so maybe I'm gonna 他们就像每个人都被钉住了，所以也许我会 do that thing that I like so much which is you know voices that that you miss 做我非常喜欢的事情，那就是你知道你想念的声音 know I love it because I'm I was talking once to a YC founder and he was saying 我知道我喜欢它，因为我有一次和 YC 创始人交谈，他说 you know if you talked to the vast majority of founders in Silicon Valley 你知道如果你和硅谷的绝大多数创始人交谈过 they were influenced by things like Star 他们受到诸如明星之类的事物的影响 Trek or Hitchhiker's Guide and these are all like pretty rosy visions of the 《Trek》或《Hitchhiker's Guide》，这些都像是关于 future whereas you know right now we have black mirror and all there's like 未来，而你现在知道我们有黑镜和所有的东西 really dark stuff you know what is going to be built twenty years from now and 非常黑暗的东西，你知道二十年后将会建造什么 the young people reading this and watching this 阅读此文并观看此文的年轻人 that's a good question boy you know and I feel like that should almost be like a 这是一个很好的问题，你知道，我觉得这应该就像一个 challenge I would that's a great sort of like challenge to the science fiction 我希望这就像对科幻小说的挑战一样 writers working today and I think some of them by the way are at meeting that 今天工作的作家，顺便说一下，我认为他们中的一些人正在满足这一点 challenge challenge I think people like Cory Doctorow Anna Lee Nuits here in San 挑战 挑战 我想人们喜欢科里·多克托罗 (Cory Doctorow) 安娜·李·努伊特 (Anna Lee Nuits) 在圣这里 Francisco is amazing science fiction writer 弗朗西斯科是一位了不起的科幻作家 they don't write dystopias they don't write those sort of you know naive and 他们不写反乌托邦，他们不写那些你知道的天真和 glossy answers either like and guess what it all worked out great 光鲜亮丽的答案要么喜欢，要么猜猜结果如何，效果很好 00:19 00:19 like just like that's not actually useful either but yeah to find a path 就像这实际上也没什么用，但是找到一条路 through the the thorn enos of real life and in power and you know the way that 穿过现实生活和权力的荆棘，你就会知道 people inflict pain and other people but still remain kind of like wow excited 人们给其他人带来痛苦，但仍然保持着一种哇兴奋的感觉 about what's coming next yeah I do I think that's I mean it is 关于接下来会发生什么 是的，我想，我的意思是 it's what I like to read and I hope that's what people are they're still 这就是我喜欢读的东西，我希望这就是人们现在的样子 producing it well I mean even in a couple of interviews I've read with you 制作得很好我的意思是即使在我和你一起读过的几次采访中 and listen to you were influenced by children's books okay on your read you 听你说受到儿童读物的影响好吧你读你 Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs specifically mention oh yeah for 多云，有机会吃肉丸，特别提到哦，是的 sourdough in particular there is a great genre of this is even this the genre is 特别是酸面团，有一个很棒的流派，甚至这个流派是 very specific talk about specific specific little slices of books this is 非常具体地谈论具体的具体小片书，这是 the sort of like runaway mutant food genre chance of meatballs you got 有点像失控的突变食品类型，你有机会吃到肉丸 your strega nona stinky cheese man yeah absolutely 你的斯特雷加诺娜臭奶酪男人是的，绝对 lesser-known lesser-known book called a Datchet the Duchess makes a cake also 不太为人所知的书，名为《Datchet》，公爵夫人也做了蛋糕 great and basically it's like all like food that you know grows out of control 太棒了，基本上就像所有你知道的食物一样，它们会失去控制 00:20 00:20 becomes giant and there's clearly something that like resonates deeply 变得巨大，显然有一些类似的东西引起了深刻的共鸣 with the child's mind because it's like you could totally populate a shelf with 与孩子的思想一起，因为这就像你可以完全填满一个架子 those books man and were you reading these beforehand or you're just like mmm 那些书，伙计，你事先读过这些书吗？还是你就像嗯？ I think this needs to go a little further I I can't say that those were 我认为这需要更进一步 我不能说那些是 the direct influence for this book that was more of a kind of hook shot where 对这本书的直接影响更多的是一种勾手投篮，其中 after writing this book I was like oh wait you know I think I think this has a 写完这本书后，我想，哦，等等，你知道，我想我认为这有一个 lineage the the more direct influence for for that kind of stuff in sour dough 血统对酸面团中的这类物质有更直接的影响 that kind of like a food vibe was truly it's all the scholarship that's been 那种就像食物的氛围确实是所有的奖学金 done in the last few years you know five years maybe going on a decade about 过去几年完成的，你知道五年也许会过去十年 microbes and the microbiome and just the 微生物和微生物组以及 daily near daily wonder of like oh let's 每天几乎每天都像哦让我们奇迹一样 see what's in the news today microbes do what like think what huh they talk to 看看今天的新闻 微生物会做什么 想想它们会和什么说话 you and they're controlling my and there's how many and we don't even know 你和他们控制着我，有多少，我们甚至不知道 I mean it's like I truly it's amazing that's got to be such a fun discipline 我的意思是，我真的觉得这真是太神奇了，这一定是一门如此有趣的学科 to be in now and and for the last little while 现在和最后一段时间 00:21 00:21 and yeah so that was I was like yes I need to put some characters in this book 是的，所以我想是的，我需要在这本书中加入一些角色 that are not people mom but microbes or microbial communities and try to try to 那不是人妈妈，而是微生物或微生物群落，并尝试尝试 give them some personality on the page and did you think at any point you 在页面上给他们一些个性，你是否认为你在任何时候 wanted to make an app as well what for this book for sour yeah well could you 也想制作一个应用程序以及这本书的酸味是的，你可以吗 know you're talking about staying around with these characters and I use fish a 知道你说的是和这些角色呆在一起，我用鱼 long time ago because when I actually sat next to Patrick Moberg while he was 很久以前，因为当我实际上坐在帕特里克·莫伯格旁边时，他正在 building it as I was working on a bait works oh my gosh he's gonna get out of 当我在制作诱饵时建造它，天哪，他会逃脱的 my life man but uh I just been wondering 我的生活，但呃我只是想知道 like if you would consider building some kind of extension I I'd not considered 就像你是否会考虑构建某种扩展我我没有考虑过 it for this book I you know there's a thing you hear where people say like 为这本书准备的 我你知道你会听到人们这样说 okay you have to come up with a story and then you find the right vessel for 好吧，你必须想出一个故事，然后你找到合适的容器 that story like does this story want to be a book or a video game or HBO series 这个故事就像这个故事想成为一本书、一个视频游戏还是 HBO 系列 whatever I think that is wrong I do not think that's actually 无论我认为那是错的，我不认为那实际上是 how good things get produced so if you ever hear someone say that you can tell 美好的事物是如何产生的，所以如果你听到有人说你可以知道 00:22 00:22 them robbing stones [ __ ] I think it's at 他们抢劫石头 [ __ ] 我认为是在 least for me I and I'll speak I'll speak actually just for myself it's almost 至少对我来说 我和我会说话 我会实际上只为我自己说话 这几乎 exactly the opposite you get interested first in a format 恰恰相反，你首先对某种格式感兴趣 neither just you know four out of pure kind of like childlike interest like oh 也不只是你认识的四出于纯粹的那种像童趣一样的兴趣哦 that comic book was so good or like wow an amazing movie or like even like that 那本漫画书太棒了，或者就像一部很棒的电影，或者就像那样 YouTube video was so weird and like creepy whatever it is and then at some YouTube 视频太奇怪了，不管它是什么，都让人毛骨悚然，然后在某些地方 point you start to sort of feel that itch of like oh maybe I could make one 你开始感觉到一种渴望，哦也许我可以做一个 too you know maybe I could play in that sandbox you can trace everything I've 你也知道也许我可以在那个沙箱里玩你可以追踪我所拥有的一切 ever made whether it's a book or a weird digital experiment to that impulse of 无论是一本书还是一个奇怪的数字实验，都曾出于这种冲动而做过 truly starting with some form that I admired and thought was awesome and then 真正从某种我欣赏并认为很棒的形式开始，然后 trying to figure out like what what kind 试图弄清楚是什么样的 of fits in that box so that's all to say that this book came out of a sort of a 适合那个盒子所以这就是说这本书是从某种 book shaped impulse and yeah I think the next app is going to come out of an app 书形冲动，是的，我认为下一个应用程序将来自应用程序 shaped impulse have you had any impulses since like what's the next form I don't 形状冲动你有没有任何冲动，因为就像下一个形式我没有 00:23 00:23 know I definitely have I mean too many that the problem is you're like there's 知道我肯定有 我的意思是太多了，问题是你就像有 so many cool things I will tell you that I'm I'm kind of still in I feel this 有很多很酷的事情我会告诉你我仍然在我的感觉中 like tension it's totally unresolved I don't have like plan a theory solution 就像紧张一样，它完全没有解决，我没有计划一个理论解决方案 or anything like that but the app thing right now it's it's 或类似的东西，但现在的应用程序就是这样 super well you know I'll make it really practical this is what happened I made 非常好，你知道我会让它变得非常实用，这就是我所做的 this app called fish mm-hmm several years ago totally on a lark I mean 这个应用程序叫鱼嗯嗯几年前完全是为了好玩我的意思是 because I kind of admired the iPhone screen in particular the like lack of 因为我有点欣赏 iPhone 的屏幕，尤其是缺乏 avro of browser tabs across the top or like other windows tiled in the avro 位于顶部的浏览器选项卡或像平铺在顶部的其他窗口一样 background you know like it's it is the it is the case that often more often 你知道的背景，就像它是这样，情况经常是这样 than on laptops and other things people will just do one thing on an iPhone at a 与在笔记本电脑和其他事情上相比，人们只会在 iPhone 上做一件事 time and that's actually really lovely anyways 无论如何，那真的很可爱 thought I'd take advantage of that made this app is great well received I had a 我想我会利用这一点让这个应用程序很受欢迎我有一个 lot of fun making it years ago by the newest version of iOS 多年前，最新版本的 iOS 就创造了很多乐趣 something has changed and now that like the binary that I uploaded to Apple all 有些东西已经改变了，就像我上传到苹果的二进制文件一样 those years ago will not run anymore it was it was getting a little funky like 那些年前不会再运行了，因为它变得有点时髦了 00:24 00:24 it looks sort of weird on the newer iPhones but you could still run it now I 它在较新的 iPhone 上看起来有点奇怪，但你现在仍然可以运行它 am alerted by Apple an email it's not going to run anymore because I am a 我收到 Apple 的电子邮件提醒，它不会再运行了，因为我是 writer and and not a professional software 作家，而不是专业软件 developer I could not immediately find the source code to this app and I read 开发人员我无法立即找到该应用程序的源代码，我阅读了 it around and liked I got some old laptops and I booted him up and I was I 周围，喜欢我有一些旧笔记本电脑，我启动了他，我就是我 just searched everything I checked my email I was like surely I must have 刚刚搜索了所有内容 我检查了我的电子邮件 我想我肯定有 emailed it to someone I can't find it anywhere so I think it's gone and that 通过电子邮件将其发送给某人，但我在任何地方都找不到它，所以我认为它已经消失了 bums me out what's had it is sad so I fear as of 让我感到难过，所以我害怕 this moment I my current thought is that fish is lost to the world or at least 这一刻我现在的想法是鱼已经消失在世界上或者至少 users of iOS iOS 11 and above and and but there's actually something I mean iOS 用户 iOS 11 及以上版本，但实际上我的意思是 that's just my sort of carelessness which is a bummer but there's actually 这只是我的粗心，令人遗憾，但实际上有 something embedded in that which is you make these digital things and unlike a 嵌入在你制作的这些数字化东西中的东西与 book where once you bind it up and put it on a shelf even if it gets forgotten 书一旦你把它装订起来并把它放在书架上，即使它被遗忘了 even if it gets damaged or you know whatever it's like still X it boots 即使它被损坏或者你知道它是什么样子仍然可以启动 00:25 00:25 somehow you can you can like compile and run at that printed book basically 不知怎的，你可以基本上在印刷书籍上编译和运行 forever and boy that is just not the case with digital stuff like the ground 永远，男孩，但像地面这样的数字东西却不是这样的 shifts under your feet and suddenly the platform you built it on goes at a 在你脚下移动，你建造它的平台突然以一个 business or you know the OS gets upgraded and you're like the api's are 业务或者您知道操作系统已升级并且您就像 api 一样 different and that's unsettling and to sort of figure out how to navigate that 不同，这令人不安，并想办法解决这个问题 how to still embrace the fun of those digital experiments but like not sign up 如何仍然享受这些数字实验的乐趣，但又不想注册 for infinite ongoing maintenance for like an ever-increasing number of 对于不断增加的数量的无限持续维护 projects I just don't know so that's it's one of these I'm really thinking 我只是不知道这些项目，所以这就是我真正在想的项目之一 about right now I think it's a it's very distinct from the way that frankly 现在我认为这与坦率地说的方式非常不同 people in like companies would think about making and maintaining apps but 类似公司的人们会考虑制作和维护应用程序，但是 there's plenty of people out there who aren't people like me who are kind of 那里有很多人不是像我这样的人 just tinker's experimenters writers and artists and I think it's kind of a funny 只是修补匠的实验者、作家和艺术家，我认为这有点有趣 moment for that kind of work right now well if you actually look around it most 如果你真的环顾四周，现在正是进行此类工作的最佳时机 people who work in the tech energy industry a lot of the work does fall 在科技能源行业工作的人很多工作确实会下降 00:26 00:26 away like if you spend two years working at Facebook or Twitter or Google yeah a 就像你在 Facebook、Twitter 或 Google 工作两年一样 lot of your work is gone right six months after you totally necessarily - 你的很多工作在你完全必然六个月后就消失了 - maybe the question is how do you give something like an everlasting life 也许问题是你如何给予像永生这样的东西 online right right I think it is such a big question I mean there's stability 在线对对我认为这是一个很大的问题我的意思是有稳定性 comes it seems at least partially with time I mean if I was gonna make a 似乎至少部分随着时间的推移我的意思是如果我要做一个 webpage say J and not a fancy one like a real simple one 网页上写着 J，而不是像真正简单的那样花哨的 and then if I took that webpage and I made sure to kind of have it host in a 然后如果我获取该网页并确保将其托管在 few different places but it but it's a it's up experiment say it's a story and 几个不同的地方，但它是一个实验，说这是一个故事， it's presented in some cool way and there's a few kind of interactive bits 它以某种很酷的方式呈现，并且有一些互动部分 in JavaScript say you know as the page proceeds and I host went on my website 在 JavaScript 中，当页面继续运行并且我托管在我的网站上时，你会知道 and maybe I host went somewhere else and I also make sure that it's indexed by 也许我的主机去了其他地方，我也确保它被索引 the Internet Archive I still don't feel as good about that as I do about a 互联网档案馆 我对此的感觉仍然不如我对互联网档案馆的感觉那么好 printed book on a shelf but I feel pretty good about it I mean I think 书架上有印刷书，但我感觉很好，我的意思是我认为 there's like you're like okay web pages have been around for what like yeah 30 就像你说的那样，好的网页已经存在了，就像是的 30 years now like finally we can kind of count on this technology continuing to 多年以来，我们终于可以依靠这项技术继续 00:27 00:27 be legible and accessible but at the same time you're like that's not the 清晰易懂，但同时你又觉得这不是 most exciting thing like you don't I can't make a cool mobile I don't know 像你这样最令人兴奋的事情不是我无法制造出一款很酷的手机我不知道 like a are enabled experience with a web page really not in the way that I would 就像网页的启用体验确实不是我想要的那样 want to and so there's basically I think there is this trade-off and maybe it's 想要，所以基本上我认为存在这种权衡，也许是 really natural between that sort of like bleeding-edge coolness and 那种前沿的冷静和 interestingness and that's sort of stability and I don't know I don't know 有趣，这就是稳定性，我不知道我不知道 if it's just like the archive or I don't know you want to be able to share with 如果它就像存档一样或者我不知道你想要与谁分享 people a lot of now is just falling into the hands of basically archivists in 现在很多人都落入了档案管理员的手中 museums yeah so you see it's happening I think rhizomes doing a project to 博物馆是的，所以你看到它正在发生，我认为根茎正在做一个项目 preserve digital art yeah but you basically are like buying you know Adele 保存数字艺术是的，但你基本上就像购买你认识的阿黛尔 from 96 and like butta yeah and like ear gapping it and making sure that the 从 96 开始，就像 butta 是的，喜欢把耳朵张开，确保 automatic like OS updates never totally do not connect to the internet totally 像操作系统一样自动更新永远不会完全不完全连接到互联网 totally it will somebody somebody I mean 完全会有人我的意思是 yeah the museums have this collections I would love to imagine there's someone 是的，博物馆有这些藏品，我很想想象有人 somewhere that's just like yes I have like the menagerie every computer every 某个地方就像是的，我喜欢每台电脑的动物园 00:28 00:28 OS like what's that you need a mecca C running OS 7.2 I've got one of those 操作系统就像什么，你需要一个运行 OS 7.2 的 mecca C 我有其中之一 Boop fire it up well it's a big thing in tv2 we did I am Boop 火力十足，这是 tv2 中的一件大事，我们做到了，我是 a podcast with Cortana from mr. robot and it's so funny because their show is 来自 Mr. 的 Cortana 播客机器人，这很有趣，因为他们的节目是 only set two years ago but they're still trying to keep like a consistent date 两年前才确定的，但他们仍在努力保持一致的日期 line so they're actually having to get apps from like two years ago and then to 所以他们实际上必须从两年前开始获取应用程序，然后再到 do the screenshots and the simulations and they're like we can't even you can't 进行屏幕截图和模拟，就像我们不能，甚至你也不能 find like Facebook from to your ego right that's that's admirable first of 找到像 Facebook 这样的人，对你的自我是正确的，这是令人钦佩的第一 all that is some that is some like 21st century 所有这一切都有些像21世纪 Kubrick attention too nerdy to tell I really appreciate that but it is it's 库布里克的注意力太书呆子无法告诉我真的很感激，但事实就是这样 right it's it's a weird time I um I would not bet against everything that 是的，这是一个奇怪的时刻，我不会打赌一切 we're pouring into kind of the vast digital box you know like everything the 我们正在倒入一个巨大的数字盒子，就像你所知道的一切一样 Facebook updates the Instagram photos all of it basically being gone in 2060 Facebook 更新了 Instagram 照片 2060 年基本上全部消失了 00:29 00:29 2050 like I hope that's not the case and I mean it seems hard to believe because 2050 年我希望情况并非如此，我的意思是这似乎很难相信，因为 it's like everybody's everything is in these systems 就好像每个人的一切都在这些系统中 but based on just what we know and the way the patterns we've seen already I 但基于我们所知道的以及我们已经看到的模式的方式 like if we were like okay place your bets I would be like and that will all 就像如果我们就像好吧，你可以下注，我会喜欢，那就这样了 be deleted yeah speaking of deleting Craig was telling me something that I 被删除 是的，说到删除克雷格告诉我一些事情，我 hadn't heard before that you have written a script that deletes your tweet 之前没有听说过您编写了一个删除您的推文的脚本 oh yeah Wow and can you how did that come about and why yeah oh no no this is 哦是的哇，你能知道这是怎么发生的吗？为什么是的哦不不这是 very this is very um clear-cut to me at least 至少这对我来说非常明确 uh I I still love Twitter even though Twitter is so fraught and so complicated 呃，我仍然喜欢 Twitter，尽管 Twitter 如此令人担忧且如此复杂 I started using it like a lot of people kind of around 2009/2010 I worked it to 我在 2009/2010 年左右开始像很多人一样使用它 her for a couple years too and it was very at that time like everyone who 她也呆了几年，当时就像每个人一样 worked at - it was like on Twitter deeply and it was it was really pure fun 工作过 - 就像在 Twitter 上一样，这真的很有趣 and I think it was because it was so much more casual it was the era of like 我认为这是因为那个时代更加随意 00:30 00:30 grab understand which with at Craig and at cat you know we're just so you're 抓住了解克雷格和猫的哪个你知道我们就是这样你 like oh we were children then so things have changed a lot but I but for me at 就像哦，那时我们还是孩子，所以事情发生了很大变化，但我但对我来说 least I think there are some ways to kind of anchor it in that other feeling 至少我认为有一些方法可以将其锚定在另一种感觉中 I like to think of Twitter as not like sort of an ongoing transcript of a 我喜欢将 Twitter 视为某种正在进行的记录 congressional hearing you know to which we can always return and be like well 你知道的国会听证会，我们随时可以回来参加，并且感觉很好 actually catch four years ago you said 其实你四年前就说过 this and that was [ __ ] but rather as like a huge weird interlinked 这个和那个是[ __ ]，而是像一个巨大的、奇怪的相互关联的 conversation in a cafe somewhere you know people making bold claims and 在咖啡馆里的谈话，你认识的人提出了大胆的主张 referring to things and saying nice things compliment each other then all of 提到事物并说好话互相恭维然后所有的 it just kind of like fading into the night air and it's gone like you 它就像消失在夜空中，就像你一样消失了 wouldn't you wouldn't record your cafe conversation for 你不会录下你在咖啡馆的谈话吗 garetty I mean I mean if you would you maybe some people do but that's weird 加里蒂 我的意思是如果你愿意的话也许有些人会这样做，但这很奇怪 that's clearly like sort of strangely antisocial I record everything and 这显然有点奇怪的反社会行为 我记录了一切 transcribe it and index my whole life yeah that's a that's a whole different 转录它并索引我的一生是的，那是完全不同的 00:31 00:31 conversation but it is you you it is like if that's actually quite strange 谈话，但那是你，你，就像这实际上很奇怪 and yet it's the default for Twitter of like recording everything and sort of 然而 Twitter 的默认设置就是记录一切 keeping it forever so that's all to say my very tiny kind of lever against that 永远保留它，所以这就是我的一个非常小的杠杆来反对它 that system and my way of kind of keeping it something like a cafe 那个系统和我让它像咖啡馆一样的方式 conversation with the words just fading away is to delete my tweets on the 与刚刚消失的话语的对话是删除我的推文 regular and oh I can report that it feels great that does sound quite 定期，哦，我可以报告说，感觉很棒，听起来确实不错 refreshing yeah yeah we're there any like greatest hits here like a sad to 令人耳目一新 是的 是的，我们这里有最棒的热门歌曲，就像悲伤的一样 see it go it was I know it yes and it is a good it's a healthy thing you can't 看着它走吧，我知道它是的，这是一件好事，这是一件你做不到的健康的事情 contend for a moat with your own vanity and you're like oh but there's just so 用你自己的虚荣心去争夺护城河，你就像哦，但就是这样 many faves and but then it's gone you're like I didn't need this face it's good 很多人喜欢，但后来它就消失了，你就像我不需要这张脸，这很好 truly it's healthy it's a the burn it's like a scalding sort of cleanse so this 确实，它很健康，这是一种烧伤，就像一种滚烫的清洁，所以这个 brings me to one of my questions I think I first came across you and when i was 让我想到了我的一个问题 我想我第一次遇到你的时候 reading snark market and so i loved it because you know you would you know post 阅读斯纳克市场，所以我喜欢它，因为你知道你会知道的帖子 00:32 00:32 an essay and then it would kick off a sort of discussion or debate below it 一篇文章，然后它会在下面引发某种讨论或辩论 and sometimes they were sort of contentious and and you came out reading 有时他们会引起争议，你就会出来阅读 the essay feeling one way and then after 这篇文章感觉一种方式然后之后 reading the comments or like oh no but i see these other sides of it as well and 阅读评论或喜欢哦不，但我也看到了它的其他方面， that died went in but 2050 i mean it was like a lot of blogs it was just a sort 那篇文章死了，但是 2050 年，我的意思是，就像很多博客一样，它只是一种 of slow tale off I mean I'm sure you have never done this they would match 我的意思是我确信你从来没有这样做过，他们会匹配的 enemies they had to do it I'm sure you would graph the post frequency and it 敌人他们必须这样做我相信你会绘制帖子频率和它 would be a real kind of actually a slower ramp into this sort of bulging 这将是一种真正的缓慢的斜坡进入这种膨胀 sort of heyday and then a slow tail off and furthermore I'll bet if you took 有点全盛时期，然后慢慢衰落，而且我敢打赌，如果你采取 that and compared it to like average hours employed per week by all snark 并将其与所有 snark 每周平均工作时间进行比较 market authors it would be a perfect sort of they would fit together like 市场作者这将是一种完美的组合，就像 puzzle pieces that makes sense I was gonna ask if Twitter killed it I mean it 拼图是有道理的 我想问 Twitter 是否杀死了它 我是认真的 well it did it did in part boy I mean that's just a whole thing a whole 嗯，它做到了，部分做到了，男孩，我的意思是，这只是一个整体 melancholy story to kind of unspool the story of blogs there's rise and fall of 忧郁的故事来解开博客的兴衰故事 00:33 00:33 blogs because I think people who who kind of came up during that time not 博客，因为我认为那些在那段时间出现的人并没有 only as bloggers but kind of as write writers more broadly because it was it 只作为博主，但更广泛地作为作家，因为它就是这样 was this amazing way to kind of cross train and just force yourself to like 这是一种令人惊奇的交叉训练方式，强迫自己喜欢 write something in public every day even 甚至每天在公共场合写一些东西 if you didn't like have it all perfectly 如果你不喜欢完美地拥有这一切 locked down or even or even know exactly what you thought you're like well I'll 被封锁，甚至甚至确切地知道你认为自己是什么样的，我会 find out what I think by like starting to write this little blog post in in my 通过开始在我的博客中写这篇小博客文章来了解我的想法 movable-type installation it was it was truly lovely but yeah there's no 可移动式装置，确实很可爱，但是是的，没有 question he was killed by Twitter and Facebook and just really the sense that 质疑他是被 Twitter 和 Facebook 杀死的，只是真正的感觉 people moved on I mean the reason you wrote a post is because you knew people 人们继续前进我的意思是你写帖子的原因是因为你认识人们 would read it and some cases you knew very specifically who would read it like 会读它，有些情况你非常清楚谁会读它 I remember in some ways the greatest pleasure of writing for that blog I 我在某种程度上记得为那个博客写作的最大乐趣 understood our position exactly in like the food chain of blogs we were not at 完全了解我们的位置，就像我们不处于的博客食物链一样 the bottom and in fact some of the blog's we were reading we're like closer 底部，事实上我们正在阅读的一些博客我们更接近 to the bottom just in terms of number of readers they were like super weird 就读者数量而言，他们是最奇怪的 00:34 00:34 specific itchy like strange little blogs and and you would when you found one 特定的痒就像奇怪的小博客，当你找到一个时你会 that you liked you'd add it to your google reader long lamented but I mean 你喜欢你会把它添加到你的谷歌阅读器中，但我的意思是 that the loss of Google Reader it was another true I mean truly was one of the 谷歌阅读器的丢失是另一个事实，我的意思是确实是其中之一 nails in the coffin of blogging but you added you Google Reader and that became 博客的棺材里钉上了钉子，但你添加了谷歌阅读器，这就变成了 part of your like secret stockpile and I remember talking to people about feeds 你的秘密库存的一部分，我记得和人们谈论过饲料 and they would be cagey they'd be like oh whatever it's just a just a scientist 他们会很谨慎，他们会说哦，无论如何，这只是一个科学家 feed I found somewhere it doesn't matter do it feed 我在某个地方找到了，没关系，做吧 I'll blog the good stuff anyway just you'd find interesting things you'd 无论如何，我都会在博客上写好东西，只要你会发现有趣的东西 write about it snark market was not top tier I mean there's many sort of tiers 写一下吧，snark 市场不是顶级的，我的意思是有很多层次 above us but there are a couple much bigger blogs in particular and just you 在我们上面，但有几个更大的博客，特别是只有你 know through the experience of linking something and writing a little about it 通过链接某些东西并写一些关于它的经验来了解 and then maybe eight hours pass or a day passes and then you see it at that next 然后也许八个小时过去了，或者一天过去了，然后你会在接下来看到它 blog up I began to understand very clear I was like I knew our role in that 我开始非常清楚地了解我好像知道我们在其中的角色 system in that sort of economy of ideas and it was really cool it just felt 这种想法经济的系统，感觉真的很酷 00:35 00:35 awesome to like have a place but um as those readers go away like as basically 很高兴能有一个地方，但是嗯，随着那些读者基本上消失了 it's like there started to be these holes in that mesh and then I think the 就好像网格上开始出现这些洞，然后我认为 parts kind of shear off and then disintegrate entirely and now I mean you 零件会被剪掉，然后完全分解，现在我指的是你 open up the squad press now you know we did upgrade some 打开小队新闻现在你知道我们确实升级了一些 between 2008 and 2007 Dean and you open up a little composition window and 2008 年到 2007 年间，Dean 和你打开了一个小作文窗口 you're like no one is gonna read this or if they do it'll be only because I 你就像没有人会读这篇文章，或者即使他们读了也只是因为我 essentially recreate it or give it a new home on Facebook or Twitter mmm do you 本质上是重新创建它，或者在 Facebook 或 Twitter 上给它一个新家，嗯，你呢？ have strong opinions on to 80 characters I I do I do now um I I have to just 对 80 个角色有强烈的意见我我愿意我现在愿意嗯我我必须只是 always remember this my first experience with like user rage being an underaged 永远记住这是我作为未成年人第一次经历类似的用户愤怒 user that is to say it was in college my first experience with high-speed 用户也就是说，这是我在大学时第一次体验高速 Internet and I loved in New York Times website which was I mean it was probably 互联网和我喜欢《纽约时报》网站，我的意思是它可能是 designed to be like 500 pixels wide at that time it was just this tiny little 当时设计为 500 像素宽，只是这么小 thing very proto you know web experience but I loved it and in the early days 事情非常原始，你知道网络体验，但我很喜欢它，而且在早期 00:36 00:36 when things they did is they actually you know to keep their time sness they 当他们做的事情是他们实际上你知道要保持他们的时间意识他们 rendered all the headlines as images in like The Times font because there 将所有标题呈现为类似《泰晤士报》字体的图像，因为 weren't like web fonts and they couldn't do it justice they thought and so they 不像网络字体，他们无法做到他们认为的公正，所以他们 rented this as images and I thought that 将此作为图像租用，我认为 was amazing I was saying for Horus their 太棒了，我是为荷鲁斯说的 images it's so beautiful it looks like a newspaper so at one point very 图像太漂亮了，看起来就像一张报纸，所以在某一时刻非常 reasonably they decided it's a little weird and kind of rigid and inflexible 他们合理地认为这有点奇怪，有点僵化和不灵活 and probably you know he's wasting people's bandwidth so he switched to 也许你知道他在浪费人们的带宽，所以他转而使用 just normal text links and it was like Times New Roman it wasn't a pretty fun 只是普通的文本链接，就像 Times New Roman 一样，不是很有趣 cuz again no web fonts yep so he switched it and I wrote an email I was 因为再次没有网络字体，是的，所以他切换了它，我写了一封电子邮件 probably a junior in college I think it may concern their whom it may concern 可能是大学三年级学生，我认为这可能与他们有关 you clearly don't understand your own brand you've made a terrible mistake 你显然不了解自己的品牌，你犯了一个可怕的错误 with these ugly text links so dumb literally 48 hours later I was like ah 48 小时后，这些丑陋的文本链接简直太愚蠢了，我就像啊 man this page loads a lot faster now this is great it was just a good 伙计，这个页面现在加载速度快多了，这太棒了，这只是一个好 00:37 00:37 grounding early experience with like come on Ernest change and you're gonna 奠定早期经验，就像欧内斯特改变一样，你会的 be okay and so I have retained that consciousness to this day and I was not 没事，所以直到今天我还保留着这种意识，但我并没有 super upset about eternity characters even though I of course like many of you 尽管我当然喜欢你们中的许多人，但我对永恒的角色感到非常不安 I appreciated the sort of the sort of haiku constraints of 140 but I oh man I 我很欣赏 140 首俳句的限制，但我天哪，我 love it I just I just keep typing it's great and 喜欢它，我只是继续打字，这太棒了 someone made the point I thought this was actually very super super sharp 有人指出我认为这实际上非常超级超级尖锐 there's you know a lot of different ways 你知道有很多不同的方式 to think about and talk about it someone made the point 思考并讨论有人提出了这一点 that with 280 characters it actually gives you enough space it's not that 280 个字符实际上给了你足够的空间，但事实并非如此 much space but it gives you enough space to do something you almost never could 空间很大，但它给了你足够的空间去做你几乎永远做不到的事情 with 140 characters on their own which is to present one idea kind of like set 拥有 140 个角色，旨在呈现一种类似于集合的想法 up the thing and then turn it around react to it you can basically say well a 把事情做好，然后扭转它，对它做出反应，你基本上可以说好 lot of people say X but I think Y or you 很多人说 X 但我认为 Y 或你 could say like I used to think X and now I think Y like there's enough space for 可以说我以前认为 X 而现在我认为 Y 有足够的空间 00:38 00:38 like two ideas to be in dialogue with each other whereas before and after this 就像两个想法相互对话，而在此之前和之后 this it was like an academic who kind of pointed this out I was like oh yeah 这就像一位学者指出了这一点，我就像哦，是的 that's right before all tweets were like 就在所有推文都变成这样之前 blah here's the thing here's the thing I mean even if it was a nice thing or a 等等，这就是我的意思，即使这是一件好事或一个 funny thing they were just like blah but 有趣的是他们就像废话但是 now a tweet there is enough space for it to be kind of a like hmm or like what 现在一条推文有足够的空间可以表达“嗯”或“什么”之类的内容 about and that might be healthy I think hmm I don't know if any fewer people 大约，这可能是健康的，我想嗯，我不知道是否有更少的人 will be taken out of context but it makes sense I do appreciate the little 会被断章取义，但这是有道理的，我确实很欣赏这一点 circle like progress thing rather than the countdown right now those really 像进度一样的圆圈而不是现在的倒计时那些真的 slick yeah yeah yeah is you get we've been and it is like oh right I've been 光滑是的，是的，你明白我们去过了，就像哦，对了，我去过了 playing a weird game this whole time I didn't even realize like and as soon as 一直在玩一个奇怪的游戏我什至没有意识到就像 the numbers go away you're like didn't matter 数字消失了，你觉得无关紧要 yeah so what are you excited about right now are you thinking like all right I 是的，那么你现在在兴奋什么，你是不是在想，好吧，我 mean maybe you've already sold a book and I don't even know it yeah what are 意思是也许你已经卖掉了一本书而我什至不知道是的，什么是 you into boy I'm into a lot of things I will say that the machine learning stuff 你喜欢男孩，我喜欢很多东西，我会说机器学习的东西 00:39 00:39 continues to preoccupy me I think in part because I think there's art there 继续让我着迷，我想部分原因是我认为那里有艺术 continues to be an arbitrage opportunity for artists or kind of art adjacent 仍然是艺术家或邻近艺术种类的套利机会 people so much of the energy is focused on super practical and like economically 人们这么多的精力都集中在超实用和经济上 valuable applications which is fine and I totally you know I truly like I cannot 有价值的应用程序，这很好，我完全知道我真的很喜欢我不能 wait for self-driving cars to come fully online and for robot arms to be doing 等待自动驾驶汽车完全上线并等待机器人手臂开始工作 you know all sorts of tasks and all that 你知道各种各样的任务等等 but the creative applications are really really interesting and I think for 但创意应用真的非常有趣，我认为 people who have even like just that fingernails grip on the technology and 那些甚至喜欢用指甲抓住技术的人 can connect their way through the code and also have again maybe the 可以通过代码连接他们的方式，也可以再次拥有 temperament to think it's interesting and not like rise if the machines 气质认为这很有趣而不是喜欢上升如果机器 it's like totally wide open like just believe Skyy interesting stuff so I 就像完全敞开一样，就像相信 Skyy 有趣的东西一样，所以我 would definitely like to try to write a novel and I'm in the process of trying 肯定想尝试写一本小说，我正在尝试 00:40 00:40 to write a novel that has kind of part of its text the product of some of these 写一部小说，其部分文本是其中一些的产物 machine learning systems but it's you know it's tricky because you want it to 机器学习系统，但你知道它很棘手，因为你想要它 be good you don't want it to just be a sort of parlor trick like did you read 乖一点，你不希望它只是一种客厅把戏，就像你读过的那样 the machine learning novel no but I'm aware of it and it's very interesting 机器学习小说 不，但我知道它而且非常有趣 like you don't want that you actually want to produce something that's yeah 就像你不希望你真的想要生产一些东西一样 good and like worth people's time and like interesting and worthwhile to read 好的、喜欢的、值得人们花时间、喜欢的、有趣的、值得一读的 but you want to do it or at least in part using these tools that kinda no one 但你想要做到这一点，或者至少部分地使用这些几乎没有人的工具 has ever used before so it's a cool challenge mm-hmm have you tried to 以前用过，所以这是一个很酷的挑战，嗯，你尝试过吗 magenta yet um I well magenta is not really like a 洋红色，嗯，我好吧，洋红色不太像 thing thing it's like the suite of different tools right they are really 事情就像一套不同的工具，它们确实是 focused on sound like mostly music stuff it's really cool I actually think I 专注于声音，就像主要是音乐一样，这真的很酷，我实际上认为我 think they're one of the sort of the few people slash groups that are doing it 认为他们是少数几个这样做的削减团体之一 right people on the podcast people on the podcast you know I'm making air 播客上的对的人 播客上的人 你知道我正在制造空气 quotes if you're getting it right and that's only to say they're super 如果你做对了，那只是说它们是超级的 00:41 00:41 competent technically and interested in kind of pushing the state of the art in 技术上有能力并且有兴趣推动最先进的技术 that in that sort of very cody sort of academic ii sense but they're also very 从那种非常科普的学术意义上来说，但它们也非常 clearly just interested in like aesthetics like they they measure you 显然只是对美学感兴趣，就像他们衡量你一样 can tell that they're they're measuring their own judging their own output not 可以看出他们正在衡量自己，判断自己的产出，而不是 unlike well we've achieved a new state of the art of 2.7 bits on the loss 与我们不同的是，我们在损失方面实现了 2.7 位的新技术水平 you're like cool is that better they're like they're like looking at the end 你很酷，这样更好，他们就像在看最后 they're looking at that sort the qualitative like well is it does it 他们正在关注这种定性，就像它确实做到了一样 sound interesting is it lovely could it be lovely and they're also this is 听起来很有趣，很可爱吗？它们也很可爱吗？ actually the best part they're building tools right it's not just rock code 实际上，他们构建工具的最好部分不仅仅是摇滚代码 they're like building these things for people to use and very clearly like 他们就像建造这些东西供人们使用并且非常明显地喜欢 learning how to use them themselves kind of in public in real time and I just 学习如何在公共场合实时使用它们，我只是 admire the hell out of that whenever I see it I think it ends up offending a 每当我看到它时，我都会佩服它，我认为它最终会冒犯一个人 lot of artists because so many of these uh imagery creation things in particular 很多艺术家，因为有很多这些呃图像创作的东西特别 are like style content transferred see right 就像风格内容转移见右 doesn't matter we can just throw it on anything right exactly yeah yeah it is 没关系，我们可以把它扔在任何正确的东西上，是的，是的 and there's something about that stuff that is I mean it's it's exciting in its 我的意思是，这些东西的某些方面令人兴奋 00:42 00:42 own way but it is at the same time a little tasteless and a little bit like 我自己的方式，但同时有点鸡肋，有点像 oh really that's what you think it is you think it's just like you think you 哦，真的，这就是你所想的，你所认为的，就像你所想的那样 think van Gogh is swirly trees okay come to the museum with me I there's some 认为梵高是盘旋的树，好吧，跟我一起去博物馆吧，我有一些 things we need to talk about but it is like I think making something that you 我们需要谈论的事情，但就像我认为做一些你可以做的事情 can learn that you can use is kind of the key there is a lot of this code 可以了解到你可以使用是关键有很多这样的代码 including some of the style transfer stuff or you kind of like the only way 包括一些风格转移的东西或者你有点喜欢唯一的方式 to use it is to kind of say run like do your thing tell me when you're done 使用它的意思是“运行”，“做你的事，完成后告诉我” which is that's a good starting point I do think that the challenge or that kind 这是一个很好的起点，我确实认为挑战或那种 of the next step that gets really interesting is learning to make tools or 下一步真正有趣的是学习制造工具或 even instruments that like a person can get better at which is not easy to do I 即使是喜欢一个人的乐器也能变得更好，这并不容易做到 mean people try to invent instruments and oft like musical instruments and 卑鄙的人试图发明乐器并且常常喜欢乐器 often you're like there's just not enough depth there you're like yeah I 通常你会觉得深度不够，是的，我 can play Hot Cross Buns and like and that's all you know I get this is no 可以玩热十字面包之类的，这就是你所知道的，我明白这不是 00:43 00:43 viola or like this is no you know since you know cool Moog synthesizer or 中提琴或类似的东西你不知道，因为你知道很酷的穆格合成器或 whatever and I think that's coming for the machine learning stuff or it should 无论如何，我认为这将是机器学习的东西，或者它应该 be hmm what do you think's missing right now well I mean I mean this is a little 嗯，你认为现在缺少什么我的意思是我的意思是这有点 self agonizing but I'll describe one of the products that I did which i think is 自我痛苦，但我会描述我所做的一种产品，我认为它是 a tiny tiny step in that direction so there's these neural networks that 朝这个方向迈出一小步，所以这些神经网络 operate on text and they can essentially learn these statistical models of text 对文本进行操作，他们基本上可以学习这些文本的统计模型 such that given the beginning of a sentence they can just keep writing it 这样，给定一个句子的开头，他们就可以继续写它 for you right and they end up course of course being sort of wacky and 对你来说是对的，他们最终当然会有点古怪 nonsensical but they really do learn something like if you train this 无稽之谈，但他们确实会学到一些东西，比如如果你训练这个 internal network on all of Harry Potter and you start a sentence like the boy 内网上所有的哈利波特和你一样开始一句话的男孩 walked into thee it'll say castle where he picked up his wand and like no that's 走进你，它会说城堡，他在那里拿起魔杖，就像不，那是 the following spell like it really and like and in the style of JK Rowling 下面的咒语很像 JK 罗琳的风格 again a really actually in an impeccable sort of imitation of the style of JK 又是对JK风格的无懈可击的模仿 Rowling or whoever so um you've been able to kind of do that on 罗琳或者任何你能做到这一点的人 the command line for a while and there's you know people written blog post about 使用命令行一段时间，你知道有人写过关于的博客文章 00:44 00:44 like oh look I wrote some Moby Dick or here's a weird fake Shakespeare which 就像哦，看我写了一些莫比迪克或者这是一个奇怪的假莎士比亚 are really cool I took that stuff kind of changed the way it works a 真的很酷，我改变了它的工作方式 little bit I thought hard about the corpus I wanted to use like what I want 我认真思考了我想要使用的语料库，就像我想要的那样 to get the what style I wanted to be learning but then I also built a little 得到我想学习的风格，但后来我也建立了一些 plugin for the atom text editor who's really easy to extend use like kind of Atom 文本编辑器的插件，非常容易扩展使用，就像 designed to have things modded on to it and so now instead of it being this kind 设计的目的是对其进行修改，所以现在不是这样的 of command-line thing you're typing in a window just as you would as you'd be 就像您在窗口中输入的命令行一样 like composing a manuscript and you hit tab the way you would to like 就像撰写手稿一样，你可以按照自己喜欢的方式点击 Tab 键 autocomplete something man line and a little wheel spins for just a second and 自动完成一些人线和一个小轮子旋转一秒钟 then it goes pop and it shows you the completion but it's not just you don't 然后它就会弹出，它会向您显示完成情况，但不仅仅是您不这样做 have to just take what the computer gives you you just as you can with 必须尽你所能地接受计算机给你的东西 autocomplete on the on the command line you can arrow up an arrow down through 在命令行上自动完成，您可以向上箭头或向下箭头 other and so but I think this is really important it's like the core the core 其他等等，但我认为这非常重要，就像核心一样 interesting thing is the weird sort of wonderful output of this machine right 有趣的是这台机器的奇怪的奇妙输出对吧 but at the same time you acknowledge that having a human kind of curate it 但同时你承认有一个人来策划它 00:45 00:45 and shape it and form it and just be in the loop and be learning how to use it 并塑造它并形成它并且只是在循环中并学习如何使用它 is just as important hmm so and it's and it turns out you mean artistic value 同样重要，嗯，所以，事实证明你的意思是艺术价值 aside is really fun it's actually really fun yeah totally 一边真的很有趣，实际上真的很有趣，是的，完全 yeah well you see it on Twitter with the autocomplete keyboard all the time just 是的，你经常在 Twitter 上看到它带有自动完成键盘 like just tap the next thing and totally totally to take a Harry Potter tangent 就像只需点击下一件事，完全完全采取哈利波特切线 for a second early on in the book you talk about our generation wanting to be 在书的前半部分你谈到我们这一代人想要成为 sorted is that it's like a strong opinion or a throwaway line no it is 排序的是，它就像一个强烈的意见或一次性的台词，不，不是 that's funny this if anything for you to 这很有趣，如果你有什么需要的话 mention yeah so so the whole line is the character says you know I'm a child of 提到是的，所以整行都是角色说你知道我是 Hogwarts and like like everyone else in my generation I'm a child of Hogwarts 霍格沃茨，就像我这一代的其他人一样，我是霍格沃茨的孩子 and more than anything I think we just want to be sorted when I read that I was 最重要的是，当我读到我是 like that's very true of me at least in my early twenties someone tell me what 至少在我二十出头的时候，这对我来说是非常真实的，有人告诉我什么 to do tell you exactly tell me what club I belong to you give me my give me my 告诉你确切地告诉我我属于哪个俱乐部你给我我的给我我的 shawl my cardigan in the right colors and let's let's just get this over with 把我的羊毛衫披上合适的颜色，让我们把这件事结束吧 00:46 00:46 yeah so so I do I do believe it I think there's something to it however more 是的，所以我相信我相信它我认为有一些东西但是更多 than anything else that line has been a window for me into like what reading is 最重要的是，这句话是我了解阅读的窗口 in the 21st century mm-hmm because in part because it's near 在 21 世纪，嗯，部分原因是因为它很近 the beginning of the book in part because it's like a very yeah hashtag 这本书的开头部分是因为它就像一个非常“是”的标签 relatable you know it's not about a book you can kind of you can pull it 相关的，你知道这不是一本你可以的书，你可以把它拉出来 out very easily and kind of stands on its own and because apparently it resume 很容易出来并且有点独立，因为显然它会恢复 with a lot of people people have taken so many pictures of that line and that 和很多人一起 人们拍了很多那条线的照片 page on Twitter on Instagram I could I could compile you a gallery of like Twitter 和 Instagram 上的页面 我可以为您整理一个类似的画廊 hundreds of snapshots from around the country in the world of people and like 来自世界各地的数百张快照 and then with a caption just like you know quote of the day or like oh man 然后加上一个标题，就像你知道当天的名言或像哦天哪 Robyn slow and really gets me or like I gotta admit this would hit really close 罗宾动作缓慢，确实让我着迷，或者我得承认这会非常接近 to home or whatever they're kind of they're putting their little spin on it 回家或者无论他们做什么，他们都在上面做点小事 but just to see the way like a book becomes a social object like that and 但只是为了看看书如何成为这样的社会对象 it's this thing for them to both ofcourse just like everything else in 这对他们来说当然就像其他事情一样 social media they're like announcing that they're reading a book which is 他们在社交媒体上就像宣布他们正在读一本书 like pretty cool they're they're sharing something that resonated with them 他们正在分享一些引起他们共鸣的东西，这很酷 00:47 00:47 they're promoting the book a little bit which is cool I definitely know I'm like 他们正在宣传这本书，这很酷，我绝对知道我喜欢 yes and beefer to say what book that is from sourdough if I wrap this loan from 是的，如果我把这笔贷款从酸面团中打包出来，更要说的是哪本书是来自酸面团的 MCD and published on you know October whatever so it's cool it's actually been MCD 并发表于 10 月，无论如何，这很酷，实际上已经过去了 like almost like you know how they put like radioactive dye total in your blood 就像你知道他们如何将放射性染料总量放入你的血液中一样 to like a trace whatever that's been my like dye tracer through is there one 喜欢一丝痕迹，无论我的踪迹是什么，就像染料示踪剂一样，有吗？ later in the book there are a couple thing there are a couple things that 本书后面有几件事 people like a young kindle highlights you can see what people liked but 人们喜欢年轻的kindle亮点你可以看到人们喜欢什么但是 honestly there's no other line that had that like that became like truly like a 老实说，没有其他产品线能像这样变得真正像 social object that that leapt off the page and then just kind of went off on 跳出页面然后就消失的社交对象 its own and it's so fascinating because it doesn't really tie back into the the 它是它自己的，它是如此迷人，因为它并没有真正与现实联系在一起。 rest of the book for the most part it stands on its own yeah it's really it's 本书的其余部分大部分都是独立的，是的，确实是这样 kind of it's the starting point as to how this character feels before she even 有点像是这个角色在她之前的感受的起点 gets to San Francisco or embroiled in this world of food or learns any of this 到达旧金山或卷入这个美食世界或学习其中的任何内容 weird stuff but yeah apparently there's a lot of people in the world who feel 奇怪的东西，但显然世界上有很多人都觉得 00:48 00:48 the same way that this character does as the story opens have you seen a 就像故事开始时这个角色的行为一样，你见过吗？ long-form fiction change as social media like influences at cat and I were 随着社交媒体（如《猫和我》）的影响，长篇小说发生了变化 talking about this in the context of museums right you know you have these 在博物馆的背景下谈论这个，你知道你有这些 like Instagram museums basically are they're like Instagram books with all 就像 Instagram 博物馆一样，它们就像 Instagram 上的书籍一样，包含所有内容 these like zingers yeah that's a good question I so I don't know for sure 这些就像 zingers 是的，这是一个很好的问题，所以我不确定 that's a it's a big question actually in a really interesting one I don't really 这是一个大问题，实际上是一个非常有趣的问题，我真的不知道 think so not yet and I think that's for a couple reasons of high tech kind of 我认为还没有，我认为这是出于高科技的几个原因 just just guess one is um the truth is that the readership for 只是猜测一个是嗯事实是读者群 books I mean it's obviously diverse and like there's a lot of young people who 我的意思是它显然是多样化的，就像有很多年轻人 read books there's also a lot of older people who read books and I think 读书 还有很多老年人读书，我认为 there's a certain kind of point at which and its course not like these people 存在某种特定的点，其过程与这些人不同 aren't on Facebook they are like everyone's on Facebook but I think 不在 Facebook 上 他们就像每个人都在 Facebook 上一样 但我认为 they're also kind of not they're like people who just mmm relate to the world 他们也不像那些只是与世界有联系的人 and get information and kind of select their media in a different way I don't 并以不同的方式获取信息并选择他们的媒体，我不这样做 know if it's a more old-fashioned way exactly but it's just different they 知道这是否是一种更老式的方式，但它们只是不同 like go to the library and get a stack of books which is by the way one of the 就像去图书馆拿一摞书，顺便说一句，这是其中之一 00:49 00:49 reasons I love like publishing books and reaching this audience this way I think 我认为我喜欢出版书籍并以这种方式接触受众的原因 it's like really special to be able to talk to them in a way that like no one 能够以一种与众不同的方式与他们交谈真的很特别 on Twitter ever will because it's just kind of you know sort of separated 在 Twitter 上永远会因为这只是一种你知道的分离 worlds with not a lot of bridges between them so I think that's part of it and I 世界之间没有太多桥梁，所以我认为这是其中的一部分，我 do think that people read books for different reasons than they use social 确实认为人们读书的原因与使用社交的原因不同 media still that could change that could change over time but yeah I think books 媒体仍然可能会随着时间的推移而改变，但是我认为书籍 the good books really do they're that sort of sense of engrossment is that 好书确实有那种全神贯注的感觉 even a word yeah engrossing they're engrossing okay 即使是一个词，是的，令人着迷，他们令人着迷，好吧 yeah so epic 2014 what's your explanation boy that's it well it's kind 是的，如此史诗般的 2014 年，你的解释是什么，男孩，就是这样，很好，很友善 of the original media experiment for me I mean there's been so many along the 对我来说最初的媒体实验我的意思是有很多 way like apps and web projects and you know weird books and things other things 就像应用程序和网络项目一样，你知道奇怪的书籍和其他东西 like that epic 2014 boy it was an artifact of its 就像 2014 年那个史诗般的男孩一样，它是它的神器 00:50 00:50 time it was 2003 to 2004 I guess is when it finally got published I was working 时间是 2003 年到 2004 年，我猜是当它最终出版的时候，我正在工作 in a place called the pointer Institute in st. Petersburg Florida it was kind of 在圣路易斯一个叫指针学院的地方圣彼得堡 佛罗里达州 有点像 like journalism school and think-tank really really cool institution my 像新闻学院和智囊团，非常非常酷的机构，我的 colleague there was another young journalist or sort of journalist in 同事那里还有另一位年轻记者或某种记者 training named Matt Thompson who has gone on to become the executive editor 名为马特·汤普森（Matt Thompson）的培训，后来成为执行编辑 of the Atlantic Monthly so Wow little did I realize um no that's not 大西洋月刊所以哇我几乎没有意识到嗯不那不是 you actually I did suspect that that was probably gonna be his path um even back 你实际上我确实怀疑那可能会是他回来的路 then so we're down in the computer lab with 那么我们就在计算机实验室里 wonderful I mean it wasn't quite a Mack SC with whatever system seven but they 太棒了，我的意思是它不完全是带有任何系统七的 Mack SC，但他们 were some funky you know translucent IMAX down on the computer lab and we 计算机实验室里有一些时髦的半透明 IMAX，我们 were frustrated because we at that time is like this is the rise of the blog's 很沮丧，因为我们当时是这样的，就是博客兴起的时候 it's really like the early blog boom and we were part of it 这真的就像早期的博客热潮，我们也是其中的一部分 we thought it was so exciting we thought all the stuff was so exciting 我们认为这太令人兴奋了 我们认为所有的事情都太令人兴奋了 and it did not seem to us like that people were talking to in the newspaper 在我们看来，人们并不像在报纸上谈论的那样 industry primarily then like saw what we saw and we tried to explain it we tried 行业主要是看到了我们所看到的，我们试图解释它，我们尝试过 00:51 00:51 to like give presentations with charts and things like that and still just like 喜欢用图表和类似的东西进行演示，但仍然喜欢 we were getting these like glazed overlooks and we're like come on like 我们得到的就像玻璃俯瞰一样，我们就像来吧 first all these people need to understand this and second it's it's 首先所有这些人都需要理解这一点，其次就是它 exciting like there's like this is this is if not good news it's like great 令人兴奋，就像这样，如果这不是好消息，那就太好了 interesting news so this is where it's almost a little cliche we're like how 有趣的消息所以这几乎是一个有点陈词滥调的地方，我们就像这样 can we communicate this vividly to people by telling a story in flash we're 我们能否通过用 Flash 讲述一个故事来生动地向人们传达这一点？ like we're like okay we're gonna make this video it's gonna be this sort of 就像我们就想，好吧，我们要制作这个视频，它会是这样的 faux future documentary that tells the the future history of media from 2004 to 讲述 2004 年至 2004 年媒体未来历史的人造未来纪录片 2014 with all this weird stuff that happened you know consolidation and the 2014 年发生了所有这些奇怪的事情，你知道整合和 New York Times goes out of business and there's just like all this customized 《纽约时报》倒闭了，所有这些都是定制的 news and it's it's it's all feels very antique now in fact but um was radical a 新闻，就是这样，事实上，现在一切都感觉非常古老，但嗯是激进的 radical vision in 2000 before but but the great constraint of course is then 2000年之前的激进愿景，但最大的限制当然是那时 she doesn't pour you could not post video on the internet there was like 她不倒酒，你不能在互联网上发布视频，就像 there was no place to do it and if by chance you did find some server space 没有地方可以做，如果你碰巧找到了一些服务器空间 00:52 00:52 the resulting bandwidth bill would like crush you there were these stories 由此产生的带宽账单会让你心碎，有这些故事 almost like urban legends of like oh yeah Craig posted a video when times and 几乎就像都市传说一样，哦，是的，克雷格发布了一段视频，当时的时间和 people watched it he had to sell his house so the bandwidth efficient way of 人们看到他不得不卖掉他的房子，所以带宽有效的方式 sharing moving pictures was flash so we offered this whole funky thing in flash 分享动态图片是 flash，所以我们在 flash 中提供了这整个时髦的东西 she was just like strange stuttering animation and it was it was actually the 她就像奇怪的口吃动画，这实际上是 the web we have lost like the lamented early web even the flash video was kind 我们失去的网络就像令人遗憾的早期网络一样，即使 Flash 视频也很友善 of like a bit much because it became very popular so I got weird early viral 有点喜欢，因为它变得非常流行，所以我很早就得到了奇怪的病毒式传播 web hit especially kind of among used people and it go so we were kind of 网络流行尤其是在使用过的人中，所以我们有点 feeling the burn and this server would go down sometimes 感觉很烧伤，服务器有时会宕机 so some friendly people with web servers around the world but send these emails 所以一些友好的人在世界各地拥有网络服务器但发送这些电子邮件 like hello my name is Ivo I'm in the Netherlands I would be happy to mirror a 就像你好，我的名字是伊沃，我在荷兰，我很乐意镜像 flash movie and we were like yes here here's the link please mirror it so on Flash 电影，我们说是的，这是链接，请镜像它等等 the main page it was it was beautiful it was like this United Nations of hosting 主页很漂亮，就像是联合国主办的 00:53 00:53 and there this list of like here's some other mirrors you know and you click and 那里有这个列表，就像这里有一些你知道的其他镜子，你点击并 you'd go to this sort of other copy of the page on some server in the 您将转到某个服务器上的此类页面的其他副本 Netherlands oh man it was amazing that's so cool have you thought about doing 荷兰哦伙计，太棒了，你有没有想过这样做，太酷了 another one you know every so often someone asks most recently was 2014 另一件你知道的最近有人问得最多的事情是 2014 年 which was kind of the crux of the of the movie that we made more than a decade 这是我们十多年来制作的电影的症结所在 ago and we got some some you know feelers from people including like media 之前，我们从包括媒体在内的人们那里得到了一些你知道的感受 companies that were like it'll be a big thing it'll be like our cool 那些认为这将是一件大事的公司，它将像我们一样酷 well like produce it it'll be rad and you know we'll pay you for it and all 就像生产它一样，它会很棒，你知道我们会为此付钱给你 this stuff and both of us had the same instinct which was like it was so that 这些东西，我们俩都有同样的本能，就像这样 project was so guileless it was so I mean he was pure yeah you were just like 项目是如此朴实无华，所以我的意思是他很纯洁，是的，你就像 these two 20-something people were like people seem people don't seem to see 这两个二十多岁的人就像人们似乎没有看到一样 this as clearly as we do perhaps if we tell a story and we had no 这就像我们讲一个故事时所做的那样清楚，而我们没有 other expectations for it beyond that and you just can't if you would do 除此之外还有其他的期望，如果你愿意的话你就做不到 something like that and it works and it's successful that is 类似的东西，它有效并且成功了 00:54 00:54 100% your signal to close put it on the Shelf say what luck and move on to 100% 发出关闭信号 将其放在架子上 祝你好运，然后继续 something else fair enough SOPA number came out how 还有其他足够公平的 SOPA 数字是如何得出的 many five yeah 2012 um and so I think you know working you know I was in you 许多五个是的 2012 嗯所以我想你知道工作你知道我在你里面 know at Wired and then yeah and then in New York and I think around the twenty 在《连线》杂志上认识，然后是的，然后在纽约，我想大约二十岁左右 twelve timeframe like there was so much positivity about tech all right yeah 十二个时间框架就像对科技有如此多的积极性是的 especially in the press and so it's changed a lot so how did that like 尤其是在媒体上，所以它发生了很大的变化，那怎么样？ change in tone in the coverage of tech like impact the way that you talk like 科技报道中语气的变化会影响你说话的方式 write about it now that's a great question I will let you in on something 现在就写下来，这是一个很好的问题，我会让你参与一些事情 that shift was happening of course it's ongoing enjoys in flux that particular 这种转变正在发生，当然它正在不断变化，特别是 shift that sort of darkening almost of the tint was happening even as I was 就在我这样做的时候，几乎所有的色调都发生了变暗的变化 kind of wrapping up the manuscript for penumbra and I remember very vividly at 有点像是半影的手稿，我记得很清楚 the last few passes in the summer of 2012 before it came out that fall going 2012年夏天的最后几张通行证，在秋天发布之前 through and changing a few lines that I mean the book is very it is very kind of 通过并更改了几行，我的意思是这本书非常非常好 00:55 00:55 like magical Silicon Valley Wonderland there were a few lines in that original 就像神奇的硅谷仙境一样，原著中有几行 manage kept there were even a bit much then in 2012 and I was like people are 2012 年的时候，管理人员保留的东西甚至有点多，我当时就想人们是这样的 gonna think I'm lame and just like and again in naive if I include this sort of 如果我包括这种内容，我会认为我很蹩脚，而且又很天真 line in sorry I even even if time and even at that point in the 抱歉，即使时间，即使在那个点上 process I was like I need to kind of calibrate this a little differently 我觉得我需要稍微不同地校准这个过程 which is and that's the risk it's the it's the fun part but also kind of the 这就是风险，这是有趣的部分，但也是一种 risk in the burden of trying to write fiction that's set now in our world 尝试写以我们现在的世界为背景的小说的负担的风险 today I mean there's definitely like you understand why people write historical 今天我的意思是，你肯定明白为什么人们写历史 novels because there's like a refuge in life it's not gonna it there's other 小说，因为生活就像一个避难所，不会有其他的 challenges but at least it won't kind of shift underneath my feet I definitely 挑战，但至少它不会在我脚下移动，我绝对 had to change the tone for the new one for sourdough part of it was just just 不得不改变新的语气，因为酵母部分只是而已 kind of natural like the way I think about it of course has changed over time 有点自然，就像我思考它的方式一样，当然随着时间的推移而改变 like everyone else we're just um yeah it's just all about kind of power and 像其他人一样，我们只是嗯，是的，这只是一种力量和 and the way these things have had their role in our lives have changed so I 这些东西在我们生活中扮演的角色已经改变了，所以我 think any like thinking human has a different relationship to it now and 认为任何有思想的人现在都与它有不同的关系 00:56 00:56 then of course I always wanted to just like not do another version of the same 当然，我一直想不做同样的另一个版本 postcard from Silicon Valley but like send a different one so yeah the the 来自硅谷的明信片，但喜欢寄一张不同的明信片，所以是的 character in this new one and she starts the book in a much darker place like 这个新角色中的角色，她从一个更黑暗的地方开始这本书，比如 she's working at this robot Factory that wants to change the world and like 她在这家机器人工厂工作，想要改变世界，喜欢 transform the conditions of human labor but their labor that they are 改变人类劳动的条件，但他们的劳动本身就是 undertaking to do all that is like pretty intense and she's frustrated and 承担这一切是相当紧张的，她很沮丧 strung out and not eating well definitely not drinking enough water and 筋疲力尽，饮食不好，肯定没有喝足够的水， and that's yeah that's so in some ways I wanted to I wanted to make it feel like 是的，在某些方面我想要我想让它感觉像 a dispatch from Silicon Valley today without taking the I think easy route of 今天从硅谷发来的消息，没有采取我认为简单的路线 just like burn it all down that you see elsewhere cuz I don't think that's well 就像你在其他地方看到的把它全部烧毁一样，因为我认为这不好 first of all other people have got that covered 首先其他人已经涵盖了 they've other people are fully on the burn it all down beat and that's good 他们其他人都在全力以赴，这很好 I mean it's it's we need them out there so maybe I could do a little something 我的意思是我们需要他们，所以也许我可以做点什么 different that's great all right thanks for coming 不同，很好，谢谢你的到来 00:57 00:57 in Robin thanks for the invitation is real treat cool you 罗宾，谢谢你的邀请，真是太好了，你很酷